there is a belief amongst house republicans andrea, that president obama is playing smart politics on this. he's taking this cliff all the way to the edge, the possibility that he's okay with the country going over it, with the idea that he can fracture republicans on the tax issue. remember, republicans have been ability lowering taxes ever since h.w. bush said the read my lips pledge. what they've run on. if he can fracture them and hurt them politically going into 2014 they believe that's what he's doing and why he's trying to draw this out. it's an interesting element besides all we talked about in terms of the monetary values here, the politics of it, absolutely fascinating. >> luke russert, thank you, kelly and chris. joining me is north dakota senator kent conrad chairman of the senate budget committee, someone who has been here, done that, how many years have you gone through these negotiations? >> 26. >> talk about where we stand right now. because the senate -- the house republicans, the speaker, did put out their proposal last night and talking again about not raising rates